To me, certainly not...I think they aren't creative and original as Pink Floyd, and other really good bands, but who am I to judge between good and bad music.

well what should popular opinion be based on? for example, mozart and beethoven are considered masters, van gogh and leonardo are considered masters, but with modern music, is it based on album sales (it speaks to more people than anything else) creativity and innovation (it's original and meaningful) or some combination of both?

No...that's not the definition of art at all. I'm just saying music is art, even if you don't like the sound of it, who it's target audience is or the way it's made.


If you recorded a computer breaking as a sample and made up a song incuding the computer breaking sample, that's music (and art). I think you totally missed my point by the way, Stardust...I wasn't saying a single sound was music at all, just that people making sounds to create music (any music) was art.

By the way, artists like Aphex Twin create songs like that all the time and it's called music...even art.

I think it's just a bit hard to define, if you look it up in a dictionary, you get this:
1 a : the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity b : vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony

and that can apply to a lot of things and they can be counted as music, such as noise from a construction site, machines from a factory, rain drop, wind blows through a crack, train whistle, on and on... all those elements may not be heard as music but with careful arrangement, those elements can be made into music. of course, they are not gonna make into the top 40 whatever, but it is still music to me.

The Spice Girls are PRODUCTS, so are britney, christina, and all other pop singers who are worth a dim a dozen.

I wasn't saying a single sound was music at all, just that people making sounds to create music (any music) was art.

So you're saying that all music is art, I'll accept that. Yet you say that sounds don't necessarily mean music. So define music. What is a song?

Your dictionary definition sounded ok...you don't have to agree with me though...we have different views on the topic and theres nothing wrong with that.

no, there isn't. I just think, that it is one of those things that are hard to define, just like I can define art, love, ...

I'm not trying to be combative or anything here, just trying to make people think and have a conversation. When I challenge your ideas, it isn't because I'm telling you that you're wrong, I'm just trying to get you to think through what you're saying and share it all.