Check back a number of posts in which I elaborate on this topic. What is or isn't goth truly transcends musical categories. So yes, they are industrial... and yet... they're goth. Nifty, huh?

I can understand the ideal that you can only speak for yourself - I agree that, unless you have experience with it, it's hard to talk about. Now, as for those pesky perkies, I could never truly call them posers. There are a few reasons for this, but the primary being that they can and often do get into the scene. Let's take a step back at the very extreme high level very of what goth is. In the most basic of senses, Gothic thinking is simply the acceptance of death as an end to life, and the ability to be unafraid of that ultimate end. Some can ellaborate further on that mentality - that we should embrace it, that we should mourn life, yadda yadda... but on the most generic of scales, perkies could still fit right in. So they celebrate life instead of mourning it - well, good for them? While I personally think they should be cordoned off and left on an island somewhere, I also think they're in their own rights too. As long as they don't sit by me, dammit!

I guess it all just plain comes down to what do you believe if your own mentality relative to being a goth, and do you intend to force that mentality on others' and their own beliefs? I'm certainly not saying you're wrong to think what you do, but I am saying that you need to take a high level view for a good look at the situation too. If they're still posers to you, that's your opinion - I'll agree to disagree on it.

True.... I listen to majority of modern goth as well insept for bands like NIN and Marlyn Manson... I don't personally like them that much. If you take a peek at bands like London After Midnight or Belle Morte you get the same vibe as in the Bauhaus or Specimen or The Cure.

Well those who call themselves goth are actually either emo kids or death metal kids. I see them in my school all the time and if you ask them anything about goth music they will think Manson was the creator of goth. I am like the only one who even understands the music in general. I use the term goth to discribe myself online but I always still have to explain myself to certian people. It to the point were the idea of a "label" is pointless... But it is needed to at least understand the music.

Absolutely, and the only thing I can tell you is that you have to be patient and understanding. The populous in general has been enfranchised to believe that goth is a root cause of evil, or some nonsense of that sort. Patience and understanding is the only way to educate any of the people with such sorry misconceptions - we are the only living proof that things aren't what society has labelled them. Ah well, in the end, we all die... and then how much will they care what we were in life?

Very true.... Well at least I get through to certian people. I never understood the whole "evil" connection. Everyone has the ability to kill or hurt someone... It is not all "goths" but all well nothing we can do but educate the masses.

of course they branded goth as evil because a lot of goth stuff is anti-organized religions. but that's fine with me. plus, they got to find something as scapegoats for their stupid sins. you are right, nicole. everyone has the potential to do good or harm to others. it is what/how you choose to do.

and u know what I say, fock the masses, if they choose to be ignorant, let them be. if 911 didn't teach them anything, they are pretty far gone. now all they know is fear and fear will eat them alive.

anyway, goth opens my ears to other things than crappy crap on commercial radios and VH1 and MTV. and I am glad about that.

How come no one has mentioned any of the old L.A. Deathrock or the early English bands? Sex Gang Children, Specimen, Southern Death Cult, Alien Sex Fiend, Joy Division, Ausgang, Theatre of Hate, Christian Death, 45 Grave, or TSOL. Those are VITAL for any goth to have, although have fun trying to some of it (without downloading it). The fun I used to have was waiting years to find that last Joy Division on vinal. A lot of things have been re-pressed now, but there was some that just hasn't seen the light of day for years. The only 45 grave album you could find on cd for years was a shitty Cleopatra comp. I was lucky to fill out my collection by finding it in dollar bins and the back of a dusty stack of records. Deathrock has even been making a comeback as a rival to the crap they play for the "gravers" at the clubs. There's a goldmine of new Deathrock bands sprouting all over the world and to name a few of my favorites there is Cinema Strange, Antiworld, Frankenstein, and Cult of the Pscyhic Fetus. Some of the 90's stuff is good too, like Faith and the Muse, Mephisto Walz, and Shadow Project. Try it, you'll like it.

of course Christian Death is a group to be mentioned, but they have gone through a tumultous past, don't ya think? didn't Rozz Williams commit suicide?

Sure, I remember the day he did. I can't believe Valor kept the name even after that.

I don't like Faith and the Muse, they are a bit cheesy for my taste, at least from what I have heard so far. I think it was their first album or something.

Mephisto Waltz is pretty good. I have one album from them and it was my favorite for a while.

Unfortunately, Christian Death went to shit after Rozz William left the group. Valor did one or 2 pretty okay albums and the best song I like from him was Church of no Return.

there is an album on Metropolis, I forgot the name, it was a colleboration of Rozz Wiliam and cevin key, I think... anyone knows?