oh crescent, you wimp.

. i don't know a lot about goth stuff, tho i don't mind a bit of nin sometimes, i play dark electronica, sometimes a bit industrial, definately dark, experimental electronica mixed with sounds of a horror movie. I'm trying to get a few shows with local goth clubs etc. because i think the kids will get into it.

This is the perfect idea of what I'm illustrating. What IS goth? If you ask one hundred people, you'll like get at least ninety different responses. There is a good side and a bad side to this.

First, the bad. There is no specific deliniation to what is, or isn't, considered goth. Unlike metal genres, rock genres, electronica genres, etc. - goth doesn't have a "set genre" to it. The goth movement was initially defined by rock music, and mostly of the darker variety. But it extended so far and fast that it enveloped industrial, electronica, metal, and loads of different off-shoot groups. So what is a gothic musical style? Anything, reasonably...

Which leads to the good point... goth is defined more by the practicioners than the music. Goth is a lifestyle and experience, and one that I still rove in and out of on many occasions. From the comment above, ruling out other groups -
Absolutely they are, but they've been enveloped into the fold far before they became mainstream industrial. Why? Because they weren't the typical industrial music at the time, and the goth types snapped it up. Now granted, it leaked into the mainstream sometimes (NIN) and exploded, but anything that has mass appeal will always do that, be it Jazz to Opera. Let's just take the three examples listed. Skinny Puppy was generally unheard of in many of their first few albums until some of the metal/industrial types brought it to light. However, look at SP's early concerts. They were more frequented by goth types than metalheads or industrialites. And NIN - a great example - is one that exploded into the mainstream because the music appealed to a wide variety of people, and the younger generation really picked up on the lyrics. This is one of those that peeked in on the goth scene, said "Hey, what's up", and ran off with the popular crowd. So that leaves VNV - really, where are they now? Majority rules is simple - most every goth I've ever talked to has some basis to listen to them, at least on occassion, which makes them part of a goth movement enough for me.

To further illustrate, you also have people sub-classifying themselves, just like they do music. Have you heard of a punk-goth, a renaissane-goth, a perky-goth... *shudder*? This tells me even moreso that the goth scene is exactly that - a scene, not necessarily a music.

What I look at when I speak of "goth music" is what drives the music, not the musical style. Check lyrics, check background, see what the band has interest in and thinks of as influences... all these things can usually identify a labelled group.

Anyway, now I'm rambling, I'll bail from here and let this continue...

okay, I heard of "punk goth".

"renaissane-goth"? no, but I can imagine Black tape for the blue girl can fit the term, specially their later releases, probably most bands on their labels could fit except lovesliescrushing. Rachels can fit in that term too I supposed... but they sound more like experimental classical, I dont know them enough to determine...

now, what the fock is perky Goth? now, that's something new for me.

hey, you a DJ or a musician? I like to hear some of your stuff if you have them handy. sounds of horror movie, that reminds me of something Hecate did with Lushmord, that EP was good. crazy industrial beats with lots of horror movie type of atmosphere and samples.

I'd say that "goth" has now transgresed into the black metal genra for most people. When people see others dressed in black listening to Dimmu Borgir they say goth. If any of those are goth, that would say that all goths are sadistic lets kill our mother type people which isn't the case. And yes goth music has definatly gone mainstream and is out to the people now. But a good example of a nowadays goth band thats not to popular would be Katatonia. They aren't really electronic at all but they are definatly goth. The electronic stuff is goth. But it has a different attidude from what the self labled goths want to hear so they put it aside and pick up cradle of filth. To be truely goth you have to actually understand what it is. All it is, is a thought process, the way you go about life. Not the clothes you wear or the music you listen to, although that could be a part. "The Crow" is my favorite movie, but not what goth is. I admit I do listen to Cradle of Filth, and Dimmu Borgir but not all the time. Only when I need some influencing on my music. Helps me write my songs.

I started a new topic not realizing this one at all... Sorry about that.

I read a few threads and it seems like more people are open to goth then other people I know who are goth. Goth was a post punk experiment like new wave... It started a trend in the 80s latter moving to the underground in the 90s. You have major goth legends that were consider great singers and bands in the 80s. It is amazing how the sound changed. If you listen to the early Cure or Sisters of Mercy you will see a change in the music. I remember reading about Rozz Williams life for a tribute paper i was doing for school. He said that the main influences for him was Alice Cooper, David Bowie and variety of artist of that time period. It makes sence if you look at them and goth during the 80s and 90s yoy will see a big influence.

Anyway i am young never was into the goth scene untill middle school and high school. Anyway I gues that is all I can say for know.

A ren-goth is the kind of goth that dresses in very antiquated clothing - renaissance style usually - and acts overly melodramatic. Usually they're marked by spurning life, wishing for death, and all the while not meaning either fully. They're attention mongers.

Perkies are *shudder* what scare me most. These are the anti-goth goths, that dress like a "typical" goth, and listen to the music... but they're the most bubbly, effervescent, HAPPY people you'll ever know. Sometimes helped along by illicit substances, Perkies are just plain crazy happy... to the point of driving me mad. I haven't killed one yet, but... you never know!


The funny thing about this is, more people are open to goth than they know, as well. Your typical person that claims themselves to be goth usually has claimed so because of a particular style of music they listen to, and a few select bands they have cordoned off to wave their "goth flag" in the air. It's truly funny, this, because you are right - the goth movement in general has been around since the mid-80's. Listen to The Cure, as you suggest, and then listen to other groups such as Bauhaus, C-Tec, Beborn Beton... see the huge leaps of change. But for all that change, things have still stayed the same. The lyrical driving points haven't really changed, the social acceptance hasn't taken any leaps and bounds, and most of the artists haven't drastically changed either. What's changed with goth is pretty simple: (a) the people that name, or misnomer, themselves as goth, and (b) the styles of music that are now included under that banner.

I wouldn't go nearly this far. I think Black Metal, while a perfectly acceptable style that has transgressed the goth field recently, is definitely not in the majority. Let's rearrange that statement, and say that black metal is possibly the most popular style of goth music amonst the younger generation. Truly, of the great majority of people I know at my age (late 20's), very few of them listen to black metal. We grew up on either heavy metal, or lighter industrial/goth type music. But for the majority, we've come around to the more indie-punk-electronica goth realm these days.

It is funny, however, the misnomers people can place on one type of movement or group in society, isn't it? I never once wanted to kill my mother, or anyone else for that matter... except maybe a perky goth or two.

If any of you are interested in what the "goth scene" holds in the US these days, check out any of the Convergence tours. Here's one of many great quotes - this from Convergence 7, in NYC:

"The theme of the Convergence 7 story is in many ways the theme of the goth scene as a whole: "Everything you know is wrong." Goths are neither devil-worshippers nor promiscuous junkie vampires— most are eccentric, creative, morbid, but not nearly as frightening or unbalanced as superficial appearances might suggest. The way the typical goth is treated by "normal" people is frequently more abominable than anything imagined about the misfit."

Funny... those bands seem goth inlfuenced but in reality are industrial. I usually think of goth as dark dance music because it usually has a beat that is like a sad dance song. Industrial seems to have a harder sound much more like heavy metal and usually no dance groove but more of a mutated rock beat that is more harsh in tone.

But in the big picture... the lines of classification have become more and more blurred as artists don't seek to fit into one category and want to bring many influences into their own creations. I personally like the blurred lines of genres but I know marketing people hate it and it can make promoting some bands and artists very difficult.

I was talking about the younger generation when I said that black metal has become popular amoung goths. The only "goths" I know are of the young generation. Mostly of the perky types.(gag) I can't stand them and most of them are just "posers" and I use that term loosely because I know a few people that get offended by it when someone doesn't understand them.(wow long sentance) But anyways I don't really know too many older goths. So I can't speek for them. I only speek for myself and my beliefs.