Yeah, I mean, artists like run DMC, public enemy, NWA, and even Fresh Prince were great at what they did.

Maybe it's because they were the "firsts," and the firsts always get the most credit because they thought of the original idea. Could you imagine if Sugarhill gang, instead of selling their songs in the 80s, waited until 2003 to release Rapper's Delight and Apache? They would flop harder than the Jay Z R. Kelly duo.

yeah when we think of old school rap, the first thing that comes to mind is the Sugar Hill gang.
sugarhill gang is one of the most influencial rap groups around.Their music allow me to have a better understanding of rap music.

and yes i agree that RunD.M.C is cool.
Kurtis Blow, Whodini, Afrika Bambaataaa and Grandmaster Flash sound good 2 me as well

There are still a lot of groups/artists that create good hip-hop and there are also a lot of artists that create old style beats. I think it's like anything that some old stuff was good, some was bad and it's the same today. You don't remeber the bad stuff as much because nobody bought it or played it. Rap wasn't that good back in the day as some people make out. If you took out all the good parts from today they'd easily match up.

Whaddaya mean qwerty? take out the good parts today and they'll easily match up?

I dunno, I see rap and hip hop as very different things. Hip hop, in its true meaning should really be a dj and an mc. in rap, you never hear or see the dj, in fact, in rap, the music rarely even resembles the sound of a turntable (I can't even recall a song where it did). Its often the same with hip hop today. Eminem claims to be hip hop, but the music is his songs are clearly recorded in a studio without a turntable.

And my real concern is that. Hip hop doesn't contain what it used to. The whole Dj part is gone, and that is (arguably of course) the hardest part of the whole thing. I know that I myself would be happier listening to a Dj doing his/her thing alone than a MC going solo. and I don't know this for a fact, but I'm assuming that the MC was at the front of the stage whenever they performed. Well now, it seems, the MC is still at the front and the DJ is way down the back in the shadows, or in another room entirely just hooked up to some speakers.

Missy Elliot seems to be emulating the sound of 'real' hip hop but again, the DJ is invisible. There is some happiness here though, the great group Jurassic 5. MC's and DJ's all visible. Grrreat!

I mean people say old school hip-hop is better than today but they mention songs that have been spread out over a decade. If you matched 1982-1992 against 1993-2003, I think you'll find just as much quality, if not more plus more quantity in the latter decade. That's what I was saying.

I don't agree totaly with what you're saying though, Papa. A lot of hip-hop today does have a DJ. Look at the Beastie Boys, Jurassic 5, Deltron 3030 etc. They all feature DJ's in their line up, it's just that they aren't getting all the airplay like Eminem and co who, like you said are rappers...but you asked about hip-hop anyway.

I feel that if hip-hop got more of the spotlight with rap, you'd see that hip-hop today is just as good, if not better than in the past.

qwerty, I have to agree with you. We remember the good stuff from the old days and the songs that stick in our heads were single items in a sea of mediocrity.

The DJ held a lot of symbolic value in the first hiphop crews because he was the one playing the beat and creating the sound. However, realistically, he didn't do much more than what the producers of today do with their clients.

In fact, I think that it is better that the producers stay separate from the crews because they can span their styles over a wide range of artists. The neptunes, for example, have their products from everyone from NORE to Britney Spears and I think they sound great.

Of course, hiphop purists would disagree with me, saying that the DJ is a vital part of any group. I would have to disagree because the only thing that matters is the final sound, with or without the DJ.

I think it really depends on whether you are watching a live band or not as well. I feel that if you have a DJ in the group, the members are going to focus more on them than a producer so the music will have more turntables in it. I mean, when does a producer scratch a record? That's the best feature of having a DJ!

Of course there are some rappers who work with DJ's once in a while, but the DJ's themselves are independent of the rap crews.

The Roots, Dilated Peoples, and Cypress Hill are the only popular groups with DJs that come to mind offhand...