Surely now, you aren't suggesting that the issue people have with your indefensible statements is that we aren't listening to enough rock? Or that we aren't listening to enough rock with an open mind? You are talking to people who listen to a wider variety of rock music than you do!

The only way I am ever going to see where you are coming from is if somehow I become LESS open-minded. There's no way in I would willingly trade my blissful ignorance for your tortured wisdom.

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I liked the "tortured wisdom" line, that was good...

The thing I don't understand especially from a long time user like yourself is thinking that my "experience" in rock is shallow or limited... That is the craziest statement I have yet read... My tastes in the rock genre are as about as wide as ANYONE I have ever come across on the internet or in my life... The only person around here that I have seen come close to my wide tastes in rock is Satch... On any given day you would hear from my stereo a selection of rock ranging from the following artists: The Temptations, Jethro Tull, Screaming Trees, db's, Buddy Holly, Yes, Bowie, Radiohead, P.O.D., Travis, The Police, Echo and The Bunnyman, and Judas Priest... And that is just well known or fairly well known names. The list doesn't even include my favorite genre of psychedelic rock in which I have hundreds of artists that I listen to on a semi-regular basis (most of which are not only unique but cover a HUGE swath of musical ideas and styles)...

Where would you ever get the idea that my listening habits within rock are not wide ranging? Just because I say the Beatles were great? Don't tell me Seerix that you are like Roivas, I thought highly of your opinion around here until the post above... Or perhaps you hurt my feelings in that in the years I have been on here you didn't know of my background in music... Maybe Satch was right in that I don't post enough around here anymore... I had thought all the older posters around here knew of my wide experience within rock music... Now you have ruined my night... Of all the back-and-forth in this thread this has been the only thing that has upset me... I have failed horribly if from 2003 until now you didn't realize what my background in rock was... Maybe it's just because over the last 6 months to a year I haven't posted much... Man, this really sucks... I am just stunned you weren't familiar with my background in music... Perhaps I forget at times what I have posted and where I have posted around the internet in various music forums... But I thought a user like you would have read my posts where I talk about the wide selection of rock music that I dig...



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Syd,

I have to say that I do strongly disagree with your premise here, so much so that I don't think there is actually a debate to be had. Because of this I have more or less stayed away from the thread. I was unhappy with the way that particular post was worded, and I had that on the brain when I replied.

I did not mean to be rude personally, and while I do definitely believe you need to listen to more music and that may (or may not) change your perspective, what I did not mean to do was ruin anyone's night. I had not really intended that to be a personal attack. I know you listen to a lot of rock. So I am very sorry that the post was rude. We sometimes type things thinking we are talking to avatars. I do, anyway.

I am going to get out of the thread. I think I am going to just have to agree to disagree and move on. But again, I apologize for any personal attack. It really was unintentional

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I have been trying to argue the exact thing you are saying, that complexity isn't the main criteria to greatness... There are many very very plain styles of music I like (as I have posted earlier)... I am saying technology and studio craft have offered musicians greater tools with which to paint... What they do with those tools (whether it is just a guy and his violin, or a orchestra of 900, or however many with their sticks, doesn't matter. Good music can come in any form)... The bottom line from what I am saying is I prefer the canvas in which modern musicians can work from... Thus, modern music (rock) has presented a slew of masterpiece level works... It has also produced a ton of junk...

My favorite form of music is psychedelia (which for the most part) takes from more previous styles of music than any other genre ever has... The results can be mixed, but some of the final productions are truly magical... Psychedelia is everything music should be... It blends all forms of music and when done well can take the listener to wonderful heights and perceptions(even without drugs)... That is my WHOLE point here... I love sound... And the more a artist has to work with the better... Some of these artists know when to use a lot of sound or a little sound and often in psychedelia (and rock) the results can be true art...


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I understand... I didn't think your post was intentional (in terms of you not knowing my experience in music)... The main reason I was so upset was NOT that you found fault in my reasoning or insight, it's that you doubted my ability to put forth insightful knowledge because you thought my listening habits were limited... When in reality (as I said) I know of no one around here who has a wider taste in rock than I (and to be honest, I have fairly extensive knowledge of jazz, folk and blues as well. Not to the level of my rock knowledge as there are only 24 hours in a day, lol)... Since you didn't know information about me, that hurt me because it elimintated any worth my words had to you... I failed to do what I want to do (spread the gospel of great tunes)...

What often is so hard is to describe the feeling one gets from music in words... Coltrane acknowledged this as have many others... I failed by not having you clearly see my point or understand the background from which my points came from... You could still choose to disagree of course, but the fact that my words fell without substance to you because of your perception of my experience in music is what hurt me... I didn't feel you were attacking me to be hurtful, it just came out that way because I have failed to clearly represent myself to you in the past...

I knew I would get resentment from some to say rock can be as good as classical music... I wanted to stir things up... I was just hoping for more posts from people like Rev Rock who have deep understanding of classical and rock music (the Rev and I go way back)...

My biggest mistake in this thread was the title... I should have said that rock can have masterpiece level music... Then we could have debated the worth of that statement without only a direct reference to classical music... Or I should have said rock offers a wider canvas in which to work from...

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This all reminds me of a thread we had way back when... It ties into what I have been saying in this thread about a wide canvas in which to work from...


http://www.radiomute.com/10255-what-...st+art+form%22


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Like you say, technology has given all music a wider landscape to work from, but I don't believe that automatically elevates all modern music to the level of previous masterpieces.

New studio techniques have added worth to rock music*, but it is still a matter of opinion if they have added enough for it to be as much worth as classical, jazz, trance, gregorian chant, or anything else.

If new techniques would be the reason for new music being the best, wouldn't electronic music be da supreme shit then?

yeah i remember that hehehe it was a good tune, and a lot better than what i was accustomed to hearing from the monkees. but i take recommendations from anyone regardless of their background (i just don't have the opportunity to check out most of what's recommended to me lately).

Wow, this thread is awesome. Myself not being a musicologist nor an expert in any sense means I have little to add to the debate, but I have to say Syd raises an interesting question, even if his arguments haven't convinced me 100%

Lyrics are a funny business. I'd say that good lyrics can add a layer of art to a modern music that is lacking in classical, but lyrics and vocals are often treated almost seperately from the music itself. Often when I go out and listen to unsigned/smallscale rock bands the vocals are a major factor (obviously not the only one)on whether I like what I'm hearing or not. Muscial appreciation is undoubtedly a gestalt thing, but I think there's something about lyrics and vocals that makes them processed seperately, maybe because we can all sing and use words every day with ease. That's why its pretty hard to ruin a good song with bad lyrics or improve a bad one with poetry.

EDIT: Actually, Syd's arguments have pretty much convinced me! This sort of thing is the reason I joined RM in the first place, and as there hasn't been very much of it has been a source of minor irritation on my part. Not that I've got much to add, but I just like learning