...give me some more popular examples of this style of music. i've heard the word used before but i haven't listened to any avant-grade music, atleast not to my knowledge. and also, tell me what avant-garde means. ex. emo stands for emotional.

It's a french term that, when applied to music, basically means "ahead of the rest" -- avant-garde musicians are those that push the boundaries of any given style into uncharted territory.

Here's are some examples...

...Avant-Garde can been seen in a classical context w/ composers such as Pierre Schaeffer, Harry Partch, & Iannis Xenakis, John Cage, etc...

...Avant-Garde Jazz breaks free of the convensions of Swing, Bebop and related forms, liberating the musician from the restraints of chordal improvisation. Examples of this form would be Peter Brötzmann, Cecil Taylor, Steve Lacy, etc...

...Avant-Garde electronic can refer either to the early tape experimentalists and musique concrete composers, but there is also room for atonal noise in the vein of Merzbow, Massonna, Whitehouse, etc, to be catagorized as 'avant-garde electronic'...

..Avant-Garde rock music is related to Prog-Rock in ambition, but is often more radical and experimental w/ less concern w/ accessibility: Ruins, The Residents, The Boredoms, Painkiller, Henry Cow, etc, can all fit under the Avant-Rock label...

...there's more to it, of course, but those are some basics.

Avant-garde translates to Vanguard. It comes from the description of those army units that were in front of the rest of the army in WWII.

You could say Beethoven was avant-garde in comparison to what came before. Just like Haydn and Mozart before him and Wagner, Stravinsky, etc.. after Beethoven. And you can use this analogy for any Art form. And any genre of music can have musicians who are avant-garde. In Jazz for example the first avant player would be Louis Armstrong back in the 20's.

In Rock you could say Elvis, Buddy Holly, the Beatles, Pink Floyd, Hendrix, Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Ramones, example were all avant-garde.

Avant music has now come to mean less structure but the music still includes composed elements and longer improvising.


Seba, Of Peter Brötzmann, Cecil Taylor, Steve Lacy, only Lacy would be considered avant-garde by today's standards. Brötzmann has always been free jazz than free improv and the same generally with Cecil. Cecil was one of the first avant jazz musicians with Ornette, but Cecil went by that by the late 60's. The majority of Cecil's music can be labeled under free jazz/free improv. And of those, like Brötzmann it has been mostly free improv.

Actually, I have some difficulty distinguishing between the two forms (from just listening anyway), and maybe I'm just naive but the two styles seem to be so closely related to one another I didn't feel bad in citing those artists as examples...

...would Sun Ra, Art Ensemble of Chicago and Eric Dolphy have been better examples? :tongue:

Yes, they would have. As well as Coltrane (though later Coltrane is Free Jazz.) and Charles Mingus.

The difference between Free Jazz and Free improv is that with Free Jazz they will start off with some "composed" theme than it's pretty much improv from there, with the occasional touch back on the theme. Lot's of long solo's as well. It can be tonal or atonal.

With Free improv, the musicians just start playing with no set plans or songs in mind. The music is made up on the spot. For this to really work you need excellent musicians. This is especially true if you are talking about a group of musicians. Otherwise, it can get really ugly quickly.

Cecil alone and with his groups since the 70's just shows up and starts laying waste to the building and crowd.

I really don't think you can go wrong with any Cecil Taylor recording you can find except a couple of the Leo Records releases.

The first time I became aware of the term was when it was used to describe the "Velvet Underground", a group associated with Andy Warhol's New York crowd.

It is my understanding that Cecil's Conquistador, which is out of print, is being reissued sometime in March by Blue Note. His Blue Note recordings were closer to avant, but they had elements of Free jazz.



Unless they find some alternate takes, I plan to pass since. I already have the Japanese release. I wish they would reissue Unit Structures with the alternate takes. For some reason the Japanese don't believe in alternate takes. They like the reissues to only have the original recordings.

One of my favorite groups. Avant-garde in both meanings of the word.

Actually, I'm aware of the conceptual differences, I only meant to say that my listening skills aren't to a level where I can discern between the two styles -- whether there is a "game-plan" or if it is wholly improvised -- without having been told so in advance...

If you hear any themes than it's most likely not Free improv. Of course if you know the musicians in question you can tell just from that. Evan Parker is not going to be playing anything but complete improv when he is the leader.