From the bottom up. That means, from the beginning to the present. And THAT means, cultivating your knowledge because you love the music. I meet people constantly, who have a fools perspective on hiphop. People who glean their entire knowledge of the art based on some poorly written history -- or worse yet, based on sound. Sound is important -- THIS IS MUSIC, buuuuuuut....... appropriating is common in hiphop. Maybe this isnt as obvious to some of you who arent familiar with it but its a true fact: there are those who are original in hiphop, and there are those who make themselves out to be original by copying other people. A majority of the artists that I see touted as being good these days, ironically, fall into the latter category. Its downright sad that people cant be bothered to know something and love it enough to see the distinction. But thats not entirely the point; the point is that its very easy for someone who is familiar to spot the fakers. If you love something you project that love, and people can tell. If you are a scenester, you project that too.

For those of you who believe that just listening to something because you 'like it', but have no interest in placing it into a historical context, are reading this I have 2 words: Fuck off. Not because I think its wrong to have personal taste or a personal opinion, but because in the scenario of this genre where so many people are ignorant of its evolution, those who dont project a serious knowledge of, or love of the music, need to be tossed in a pile. If you love something enough you'll want to understand where it came from. If you just 'like' it, in the same way that you might like a pair of jeans that happen to be in fashion, then I suggest you bite your tongue before you start pontificating about something that you treat as disposable.

I agree with a lot of the statements you describe, although I am not nearly as serious as you seem to be. I, myself, cannot stand people that talk about things being "unenjoyable" if they don't know anything about the genre as a whole, or even take the time to actually listen to a wide array of the artists/music that's within the genre. We can all jump on a bandwagon and say that we like this or that and not know anything about it, but as you said, the majority of these people stick out like a sore thumb.

Halcyon, should I assume that this is directed towards me?

I agree 100% that this is how to approach hip-hop as it is to approach any genre style...it's how I've always worked when looking for new music, searching for the innovators before the new blood. I do, however, like to get a good cross-section when I'm relatively unfamiliar with a music and that includes some newer artists, as in, Black Eyed Peas. As I'm relatively new to hip-hop, I've not uncovered all of its roots, but do own works by The Last Poets, Boogie Down Productions, Grandmaster Flash, Public Enemy, etc, and (( unless I'm completely off-base )) these are some of the founders of the form. I also enjoy relatively recent artists such as The Roots, A Tribe Called Quest, Aesop Rock, Blackalicious, Jurassic 5, etc...

...I don't claim to know everything about hip-hop, and if I enjoy something that someone else feels to be contrived or derivitive, so be it, we all have our tastes. If it truly is redundant garbage, I'll uncover these traits eventually on my own...music wouldn't be fun at all without some sense of surprise to the journey, and in terms of hip-hop, I'm still getting started.

I feel like you're writing this to me specially after the PM you sent me.

I was not writing it towards either you, Bonnie, or Seba. Its part of a broader statement that I'm trying to make, and have outlined here: http://www.radiomute.com/musicthread14433.html -- post to it. Im interested in what we find.

Bonnie, I like you. I dont like that you moderhated my post, and I think you have along way to go with hiphop, but I still like you. No hard feelings.

Seba, those examples I gave you are a good start. This is not to assume that my taste is supreme; its a simple fact... there is a certain genius to all of those examples listed. Thats why they are classics. Thats why they move people, and still move crowds to this day at shows. Sometimes its just a matter of sensing that genius.

I agree with a lot that you are saying Halcyon. I normally do but i think that is entire rap/hip hop forum is mainly filled with threads aimed at defending the artform instead of celebrating it as it was meant to be.

I agree with a lot of what you say. although imo there is no ONE single context to listen to hiphop. the historical context of the genre is ionly one of the contexts, and there are many others: the context of popular music in general, a social context, a political context, a black history context...and many more.

by training yourself to listen to hiphop from different perspectives you might find even the lousiest tracks to be fascinating.

I Agree In The Fact That I Hate When People Diss Underground Because They Dont Know It, Or Becuase They Have Never Heard It, Or If They Dont Like Underground Becuz The Underground Artists Are Different And Rap About What They Want Not What Other Rappers With A Video Are Rapping About. And For You People Out There That Dont Respect The Underground Or What The Underground Is Trying To Do... Then Fuck You... Fuck Your Favorite Lyricist... And Fuck Jay-z For Saying Hes The Best When He Cant Hold A Mic To Eyedea Or Slug Or Aesop (i Dont Know Where That Came From) I Just Hate These Artists That Claim To Be The Best, When They Dont Even Know About The Competition Out There. Mainstream Rappers Need To Realize That There Is More Competition Out There Then The Other Nigga With The Other Video Thats Played After Theirs...

Mike dude I hate you for the same reason you hate me. You don't like me because I don't like underground. I do like underground juz not those pussies who start underground beef and you neva ear about it. You juz a hater on all mainstream. How you gonna hate all mainstream you gotta listen to the lyrics like Jadakiss That's a real rapper.
And for your bitch ass to act like Pac ain't one of the best......man you a stupid fuck.

ok... pac is not one of the best lryicists sorry but hes not stop bitchin second there are decent lyricists that are mainstream not alot, third when did i say pac was bad i like pac a lot hes really good, but not the best not close. and underground doesnt start beef, not like mainstream you dumbfuck, underground get along for the most part... and you dont like underground becuz you dont know it, so stop saying shit like you have... comeone kid you think luduacris is a good rapper, that shit made me laugh when i read it, so dont even start trying to diss underground if yoou dont know it, and me yea i know mainstream i have as many mainstream cds as underground. (but i have more r&b cds then rap) i have every fuckin shitty rapper you can think of from lil wayne to black rob, try to name some mainstream artist more then likely i have their album and have listened to it fully 3 times or more so dont even start with that bullshit, and you and every other kid out there who doesnt know hip hop needs to get off pacs dick, hes not the best and neither was biggie or yea and neither is JADAKISS... AND I THINK MOST PEOPLE WOULD AGREE WITH THAT TOO. NOW IF SOMEONE COULD GO PLEASE JUDGE THE BATTLES!!!!!