'Welt' is very addictive. I have trouble categorizing it. Industrial synthy- pop electronic...? All I know is I've been spinning it alot lately. The lyrics are amusing as well. Anyone else cherish this awesome release?

It's just electro-industro-pop.

I have difficulty with any of ogres projects after puppy.

I was told once that ohgr is glam rock.

I don't know, I am bad at classifying music into different genre.

Bedside Toxicology wasn't all that great.

Does everyone actually think that industrial dance music is avant-garde? I always thought you had to be a composer to fit into this category...maybe a couple sound engineers can squeeze by.

I think it's safe to say that Skinny Puppy and KMFDM belong in the Rock music forum.

Avant-Garde is a broad concept, Roivas, and is open for debate...while many Industrial artists borrowed heavily from Musique Concrète, their fusion of its concepts with the intensity and presence of rock music not only helped it find a larger audience, but possibly helped give it focus. I agree that not all Industrial is Avant-Garde or very experimental in general (( KMFDM, for instance, I would certainly not include here )), but a lot of what passes for Industrial these days is anything but. The original innovators of the style were still very atonal, abrasive, and experimental for their time in the late '70s/'80s world of rock and they influenced a massive number of future musicians. In general, I find that the incorporation of disparate musical elements into a new creative idiom is very much Avant-Garde, and quite experimental, even if it does include Rock music as a base (( for shame! )).

Essentially, I believe that within each genre of music there is its own respective "Avant-Garde", be it Jazz, Classical, Rock, etc, all of which do not sit well within a single accepted genre and defy classification, and all these are welcome for discussion here. For acts such as Throbbing Gristle, Einsturzende Neubauten and Skinny Puppy, I consider them very much a part of the "Rock & Roll Avant-Garde" (( however, for those who came after and followed in their footsteps, I would say less so ))...

...but as always, this is open to debate.

And as for the Ohgr album, I haven't heard it yet, so I can't comment there...

Well, I apologize for being snooty. It IS a broad term. With the thousands of "experimental musicians" out there recording parking lot noises and air-conditioners it would be tiring to sit at the gate and check everyone's credentials.

After a certain point, you have to admit that people are no longer questioning aesthetics and are merely making avant-garde muzak as if it's some form of punk rock.

Unfortunately, my response to John Cage would have to be: BUT NOW THEY DO!

I suggest you check it out then.

... maybe the problem with Avant-Garde (or, for that matter, any label) is that it ultimately is never really very precise. It is a real human tendancy to want to categorize everything, however. For whatever reasons we all just do it, even when we're resisting the impulse we're still doing it somehow.
I guess I figure, in the end, if it sounds good to you, why worry about how to categorize it? Apple Jacks may not really be all that apple-flavored... but WHO CARES... we know what we like, right?

--- drsquid

Squid Quote of the moment:
No, I'm not lost. I'm at the corner of Walk and Don't Walk.

You have a good point, drsquid!