If you meant today's evolved version, you should have definitely specified it. You're speaking in broad generalizations such as "any industry", "when the band played all those roles" (as if that was ever a universal reality--it never has been), etc., etc.

And yeah, I do indeed take offence when these kinds of uninformed generalizations are offered up as the gospel truth.

And as you know, on the rare occasion when I decide it's time to take the debate to the proverbial jugular, I don't back down.

We are speaking in general trends to music, yes you are going to generalize, it's called 'big picture conversation'. Once again, I am befuddled what I said that you so draw offense to. Whatever, you're going for the jugular but finding ghosts instead.

We'll color code it for you and play it from A to Z so you don't have a fit.

In the early days, bands WERE involved in more aspects of the music than they are now, in general. Do you disagree?

There is MORE SPECIALIZATION in music nowadays. Do you disagree?

I do think you misunderstood what NDF was saying,Rev...and I totally agree with you. It all starts with the song. Lyric-writing especially is such an under-rated talent. The great trick is to make it sound easy..as if the words just spill out...but it is so difficult to tread that fine line between the inane and the eloquent. Hal David is one of the most under-appreciated lyricists as far as the general public..but his lyrics were absolutely wonderful and were the wings that lifted Baccarach's melodies off the ground. I heard it took him almost a year to write "What the World Needs Now Is Love"...lets see..a field! no..a MEADOW! De-construct "Do You Know the Way to San Jose" and hear all the internal rhymes and how every syllable lands on the beat just right...don't get me started.

I think we have to look at the fact that when any sort of music is new, the only people that'll perform it are those that write it, so to that extent, NDF is right, but there's never really been a time when bands have been truly independant from outside influence. Motown's a good example. The Temptations and the 4 Tops were probably the first "Boy Bands" around - 'cept they could actually sing.........

Well, maybe I did misunderstand...but how am I supposed to understand somebody who thinks that Bernie Taupin wrote most of the music for Elton John???

I disagree on both points. Neither are universally true. I could site lots of individual examples, but I already did that. On the specialization issue, it really hasn't changed all that much. Some bands and artists have artistic control, and others don't. That's always been the case. What's changed is the emphasis on marketing and demographics. That's made the specialization, when it occurs, contribute less creativity to the process instead of more.

The issue is not specialization. The issue is the increased role of low-risk marketing and demographics. That's why today's music sucks. It's not because somebody besides the band produces or writes it. Anyway, a lot of the bands that are so proud of producing and writing for themselves nowadays are so bad that they could use some of this horrible "specialization" to "ruin" them into making some better records, as far as I'm concerned.

So true!!

You were correct, but uncharacteristically harsh...lacking that gentle tone of forebearance you reserve for atheists and hedonists.

Let me amend what I was saying, I meant to say he wrote the lyrics for Elton John, with musical knowledge of course. Don't you need some of that to make lyrics for a song? I am sure you are aware that he IS a songwriter as well?


Yeah, that's pretty much what threw me off in the beginning. I felt like I was sucker punched by the good Reverend there.

OK, that's cool with me. And yes, I am aware that Bernie has done some songwriting on his own along the way. As for his "musical knowledge" in the early lyrics, let's just say that one of the earliest indications of Elton John's amazing melodic genius was how he could take those early Taupin lyrics, with their glaring inconsistancies of rhyme and meter, and make great pop songs out of them. Bernie has improved an awful lot over the years, becoming a much better crafter of lyrics...although that has come at the expense of some of the edge that made the earlier work so interesting, I will readily admit.

As for the "sucker-punch", I figured you can dish it out, so you oughta be able to take it as well...but I do hope you get to feeling better real soon, dearie...